Question & Answers

Can Western Economies learn from China?

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What are the lessons, if any, of China for the Western decentralized market economies? Is 'planning' necessary to grapple with the large scale problems facing us, such as climate change? Read more about the question and see INET's exclusive interview with Orville Schell here.

Answers

Good and bad

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Schell should be commended for realizing that a different society -China in this case- does not have to follow previous models to progress. At some points in history societies attempt new ways, some succeed, some don't, or perhaps it will be more accurate to say that they all succeed and fail to some extent, and only time -and comparative analysis- tells which ones did better or worse. Surely all readers remember after the collapse of the Soviet Union when almost every Western scholar cockily asserted that centralized planning was doomed from the start.

The part that does not work is assuming that China and the West will necessarily work together to solve issues such as climate change. If their models are different, why should they have the same priorities? Back when the US was the strongest emerging economic world power, the US robber barons could not care less about the environment. Why should these new Chinese barons (I'll let the Chinese people decide whether they deserve to be called robbers) behave any different?

A lesson to be learned

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The only lesson the West can learn from China at this point is not to paint yourself into a corner with foreign exchange reserves. Didn't Soros capitalize on a similar exchange rate anomaly? It's not exactly an apples to apples comparison since one of those anomalies is currently generated under a communist regime, enabling a duration not afforded to the free floating rate of the democratic variety.

If China successfully makes the transition to a consumption from a production based economy successfully while raising the standard of living for its entire population, perhaps we can learn other lessons. However, that's a big "if" and will take quite some time.

Fred Viole

Validation?

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Dear Inet,

I enjoyed the interview with Orville Schell. His insights on China are enlightening. I have a few thoughts and comments for Mr. Schell and other Inet scholars. Please feel free to respond.

I have a deep concern that if we as scholars validate central planning we also validate the human rights issues that are governed. Yes, China is developing and evolving but on issues of inalienable rights they fail miserably. Are we to be blamed for such nullification of human rights when we express a need for an economic and political paradigm shift in the western economies? It is easy to say that if a country is at a rapid growth rate and is receiving non-speculative capital flows then that growth country must be on the correct economic and political path. Perhaps China is moving to a more western style and central planning will evaporate with time.

There is more at stake than just a lower inflation rate for western economies. What is at stake here is the concept of inalienable rights. Will the developed world standup to central planning? I see it, perhaps wrongly, that central planning has extreme tendencies to prevent self expression and free thinking. This is especially true when one expresses contempt for the political direction. China's regime does not believe this to be essential. We as scholars have failed to shed light and direction on this very issue of economic growth without social freedom in the mainstream. There is more than just price and quantity equilibrium, it's about positive social change.

China will grow rapidly, but history proves that either an endogenous shock or exogenous shock to prevent corruption and institutional inefficiency will eventually happen; which I hope will lead to self expression without the fear of government recourse. The only question is when. Perhaps a hundred years from now? There is more to economics than nice theories - it is about peoples' dreams.

In parting, it is wise to have collaboration on large issues to help solve complex global issues. For example, pollution and energy consumption are problems that will need a multi-lateral solution. But validation of central planning and nullification of human rights are really at the heart of the China growth story. We as scholars must not be tempted to take the easy way and publish papers and write books on how to be more Chinese and less Western. We must realize the "long march of scholarship" will provide truth and the pursuit of happiness, which is quite antithetical to the current regime in China.

Those are my Reaganique thoughts, what are yours? Where are the Gippers when you need them?

Paul Cottrell, MBA
Walden University
PhD Student
paul.cottrell@waldenu.edu

Can Western Economies Learn From China?

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Yes and No

Yes, Western Economies should look into the fundamental way Chinese think about money. Chinese in general have proven to be natural savers. Further, regarding lending money, China's banking regulations are much more strict than the Western world.

Credit is seen by many as quick and easy funds. However it is, at the same time, an opportunity for many to better their lives.

I believe human nature tends to go for the easy fix rather plan for future opportunities.

As China becomes more prosperous and westernized, this default mode of thinking about credit will start to change. So eventually China will come pass the same monetary problems faced in the West.

Can Western Economies Learn From China?

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Mr. Schell does a decent job in outlining some major issues, but I didn't find his talk tremendously nuanced. Not much that he said is actually "actionable", and I suspect that if you were to press him for greater insights he could supply them. It seems to me as if he's trying to "wake-up" the American public to some fairly basic facts of life as they currently exist. Anyway, I'm hoping that this is the case, otherwise Mr. Schell has no idea of how policy is actually implemented. To blame "Washington" is to play powerless... and not to mention that it is a "political" act, in and of itself, to blame that nameless concept of "Washington". Oh woe is me, poor old USA, straight-jacketed by it's own inept institutions, and condemned to rot because they can't make new laws... aww shucks. I guess new laws must be the only answer then? If this is the most nuanced thought currently being fed to the upper echelons of US society, then at least it's fairly easy to see where the problem starts.

The "miracle" of China, is not a miracle at all... rather it's a very large population striving to live a better life. They've had a very long way to come, and most of what we have seen in the last 20 years, in terms of Chinese growth, represents the "lowest" of the low hanging fruit. Good for them. And frankly speaking, from a US perspective... one could easily formulate a thesis explaining that the situation in the US would be even worse today than it currently is, if this "boom" had not occurred in China. The first thing that the US has to understand is that China really doesn't care too much about what the US thinks.

If 5 year plans are the problem, why don't we just use China's 5-year plans as a proxy or as indicators... since they are such a big part of the global economy, doesn't our access to their 5-year plan give us a huge informational advantage..? Also, let us not forget the fact that there are civil servants all around "the west" armed to the teeth with 5-year plans. Get real. Seriously, if this is a potential INET solution, then you might as well quit wasting your time and Mr. Soros' generosity.

Pointing to China is just an excuse to avoid looking at the US's own internal problems. The "West" can begin by getting an increased understanding of the Confucian ethos, from there, all else will make better sense. China's really not doing anything different than the Japanese, Koreans, and to a somewhat lesser extent, the Germans, have done before them.

The most serious problem for the US is that they are out of ideas. Without significant policy change leading to cultural change, the US will be inexorably behind in 20 years, with little capacity to change the game from there.

Just to give you a little flavor... In my current doctoral classes, there are 4 post docs from mainland China in our classes, all of them sponsored by the Chinese government to be here for at least 1-year. These scholars will be back in China shortly, sharing what they have learned with an intellectually thirsty intelligentsia back home. The latest trend is that the Chinese government is now paying huge cash bonuses to any scholar who can crack the top "Western" Academic journals. My bet is that they soon will. But of course the Chinese don't understand economics... haha.

Anyway, wake-up people... the question is not what we can learn from China, rather the question is... can we actually implement the things that we have already learned, before they do?

Tick tock, tick tock.

NO inmediatamente

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Creo que el tiempo es un factor determinante en esta pregunta, como sociedades aprendemos permanentemente y creo que con Las economías del Oeste Europeo han sufrido levantamientos sociales fuertes, si combinamos estos dos factores solamente la respuesta sería si, pero existen otros factores a nivel mundial que se tendrían que dar para que realmente el Oeste de Europa resurgiera y uno de ellos es la combinación de tiempo y los bloques económicos mundiales que lo permitan al ser un muevo mapa mundial de la economía de los próximos lustros.

Gracias por permitirme emitir mi opinión ante ustedes como GENIOS de la economía mundial y espero sea un pequeño granito de arena en el inmenso mar de variables y retos que representa su trabajo para el mundo.

What Western Economies can lesrn from China

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The success of the current Chinese economy is not determined by centrally planning of it (this was in fact in the former Soviet Union, but led only to ruin it), but by the Confucian morality which is deeply rooted in Chinese people. Therefore, what the West needs to borrow from the Chinese is not a centrally planed economy and its centralized management, but moral system. Better yet, to take developed by me the theory of optimal morality ("The problem of justifying morality» http://philprob.narod.ru/philosophy/Justmoral.htm, etc.).

The Question of Political Economic Model

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Does this economic model, the purported "Chinese" model, imperil the "American" model?

Is this not simply a form of "Import Substitution" in large part coupled to a wide and ranging "Infant Industry Theory", on steroids, made possible by the mass commodification of products, as if mere commodities, where even some Trade Fairs, selling Goods, advertise as Chinese Commodity fairs; as if providers of natural resources.

Much of the common punditry around this topic, revolves around the great shift of economic might from East to West, as if global development, and the diversification of economic might is a new occurrence, rather than a several decade old process. One need only review the data.

Is the great commodification of products, not simply a normal development relative to the Product Life Cycle.

Does much common discussion forget to discuss demographic, basic required resources such as Water, and other issues such as Arable Land? Is there much hype relative to the advance of consumer prospects, where even relatively well paid workers, where even those of multiple of averages, could not possibly purchase the homes being currently speculated upon?

Where Asian consumers, traditionally spend more of their disposable income upon food, this will continue to lead to ever increasing food prices globally as marginal increases in Incomes, will lead to rising commodity prices globally. By extension, it might be easier to believe that some commodification of goods, in this light, might lead to some levels of greater consumption in the short to medium term, prior to the onset of demographic challenges, challenges whose impact will effect the composition of the domestic economy, and the overall economies relation to the global economy.

Is the stop and go, on and off, mechanisms that are utilized within the economy,a strength, or illustrative of weakness?

Is the composition of growth healthy, sustainable, even beneficial, despite headline growth numbers even without the corresponding institutional weakness that plagues the system?

Not to rationalize the excesses, weaken policy responses, or take a lessor than realistic or objective, realistic, even pragmatic view on the evolving situation, but, China is, and will continue to be a Developing Country. There is, and will continue to be great human capacity development needs within the country. Further there is and will continue to be a plethora of development opportunities more broadly across the world.

In many ways, the discussion of these issues, in the way that they are handled in the popular media, even in some venues discussing evolutions to an evolutionary system, are counter productive. Further, the model presented by China, presents great challenges to Global Development, in many ways, especially a Global Development that is more widespread, and broad based, siphoning off many resources, and exciting, the excitable Global Investor base.

One need be more reflective upon what is occurring, attempted, or purported to occur, and under what time-frame. While one discusses population, this is unilaterally discussed as a benefit. It might be, it isn't certain that it is, as there are so many factors to consider in this, where it might be beneficial, it might not be, and further, it might present many challenges. I guess today, by repetition, isolated, and important factors, can isolate the other important factors from the discussion, limiting objectivity, to the obviously, necessary condition, that must occur, as if, certainly from, repetition, it must be so.

These are simply a few thoughts to consider, I could write endlessly on the topic, and so many other obvious conditions, in the present media environment, that are less obviously so.

One last comment, the sheer weight of development opportunity (need), is in many weighs, a great delimiting factor upon the development trajectories of similarly placed countries, while those in the developed world are sidetracked from the real issues that need to be addressed in failing to understand the implications of that premise.

Where opportunity costs theorems hold true, and a seeming benefit, the accumulation of foreign reserves outside of need for a deep need to cover import cover for a realistic period of time when considered in the light of the composition of GDP, then the proposition as to the model, and its implications, both as have been perceived, and unto the future, in many ways, might lead to very different conclusions, on m,any of the presently assumed premises upon which many of the ways in which these issues are discussed, not to mention so many of the isolated factors that have been isolated from the discussion. As always there are many challenges and opportunities presented by the present issue, not least its surface level coverage in the popular press globally.

learning from China

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Learning from economic growth of China
by Ezequiel Athayde
ezequielathayde@oi.com.br

There is no mystery and not much to learn from China. What just hapened to China has been a very fast and intense phase of western economy investments in a peripheral economy. And ever since it occurs it is necessary a strong political system, without which investments would be impeded by old interest in the country.
This has occurred in all the underdeveloped countries. Only after the phase of investment is that the political system tends to open and become a democracy.
The real problem is to sustain the economic plateau at which the whole world economy has come with China's growth with its potential of consumers.